Transcription:

Hello everyone! Welcome to my first ever podcast! My name is Nidhi Gandhi and I am a Writing Studies major and an English major, concentrating in creative writing and literature at Hofstra University in Hempstead, Long Island, New York. I am a junior soon to be a senior. I am an emerging writer, a Shakespeare lover, a tutor at the writing center, I’m a novice researcher (now), and I am a process penguin! I am in a serious relationship with food, good music, and I love The Godfather Trilogy, and if you haven’t seen it, go, drop everything, and watch it right now! 

One of the classes that I am taking this semester is called Writing Against Power and Oppression and the purpose of this class is to examine the different ways in which people in the United States and across the world have used language to subvert oppression and empower themselves. Unfortunately, we live in a world that labels everything and everyone: Black or white, rich or poor, gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgender, queer. Language is also used as a means of labeling:  oh you speak great English, or if you don’t, “speak English, learn to speak English.” These are just a few labels that society imposes on people, and although these categories are part of our unique identities that we need to accept and embrace, the problem is that these categories are used to oppress people who embody them. Oppressors perpetuate an idea of “us” vs. “others or “otherism”–which gives  people an idea and belief that they can segregate, ostracize, and humiliate people that are not a part of “their” group. 

In class, we watched a TedTalks video of Jamila Lysicott who is a social justice education scholar  and a spoken word performer. In the video “Why English Class is Silencing Students of Color,” Lysicott talks about how people always assume and believe that she is “a minority” when in reality, she is a “member of the global majority.” Lysicott is a multiliterate person– fluent in speaking, writing, and reading  in Standard English, Caribbean Creolized English, and African American Vernacular also known as Ebonics. Lysicott alludes to the fact that most people in the world are in some way literate in more than one language. I, myself am an Indian and American woman and I came here to the United States from Mumbai, India when I was two years old. My first language is Gujarati–I am fluent in Gujarati, I can speak it and that’s what I speak at home, and I am also fluent in English, more so actually because I can read and write in English, but I can’t read or write Gujarati, unless the words are written in the English alphabet.  I also want to point out that contrary to popular belief,  Hindi is not the only language in India. According to the Eighth Schedule to the Constitution of India from the Ministry of Affairs in India, there are twenty languages that are officially recognized as part of the country: Assamese, Bengali, Gujarati, Hindi, Kannada, Kashmiri, Konkani, Malayalam, Manipuri, Marathi, Nepali, Oriya, Punjabi, Sanskrit, Sindhi, Tamil, Telugu, Urdu, Bodo, Santhali, Maithili, and Dogri. There are also thirty eight other languages that are demanding to be included. 

The two main languages of India are Hindi and English and English is vastly spoken not just in India or in the United States, but all over the world. There is prestige in the idea of speaking English. But what’s interesting is that there is a hierarchy in English-literacy as well. For instance, Laura Greenfield, a scholar in writing studies talks about in her article “The Standard English Fairytale” how “Standard English” is perceived as superior to other Englishes like African American Vernacular for example, and how it’s taught in the United States because it’s considered a “qualifier” and a “ticket for survival and success in American society.” This perception of the superiority of Standard English is also prevalent in other countries around the world. Fauzia Shamim and Uzma Rashid did an empirical study in Pakistan where they interviewed three students about their English education. Shamim and Rashid explain that there are three types of schools in Pakistan: elite private English medium-schools (O/A level track), non-elite private English-medium schools (Matric/Intermediate level track), and public-sector schools that follow an Urdu-medium (Matric/Intermediate level track) (48). Today, I have with me my mother Varsha Gandhi. She grew up in India during the 1960s and 70s and she will be telling us about her education and English education experiences in India as a juxtaposition of the stories of Aneesa, Farina, and Kamran and their English education experiences in Pakistan. 

Hi mom, how are you?

I’m good. How are you.

I’m okay.  So mom, can you please tell us where you’re from, where you grew up?

I’m, i’m actually from India, born in India and grew in Bombay, now they says Mumbai. And we are living in the town of Mumbai, it’s name is Malad. And I’m gerew in, grew up there.

Um, mom,  Shamim and Rashid talk about how there are three types of schools in Pakistan:  What was school like? What kind of schools did they have in India? 

Well in India, that time in 1960s to 70s, we have a community kind of the schools. Like India, the most people are speaking different kind of the language. On that based, they, the school is like Marati-based medium, people speaking in Marati, Marastrans, Gujarati they speaking in Gujarati so it’s a Gujarati mediums schools, some is they speak in Hindi like Sindhi or Punjabi, they are going in Punjabi, Hindi-medium schools and some parents, some they like private or says the Catholic schools, like that it’s medium is English-medium, and most of the, most of the who speak, who speak in English

If you want to speak in Gujarati, you can. 

Okay.

And, everyone who…it’s okay, and some parents they have to think they are their childrens, maybe speak in English, and in the future it’s a, it’s very useful in English so they are, and suppose they are affordable, then they are, they put in English-medium school. 

Is there, are there public schools and private schools? What is that, what’s that like? Does everybody have access to education?

Yeah, everybody gets the education as they are own parents, the standard of living. Like who is the very poorest, they are going in municipality schools, municipal school, and it is free, totally free. Who has, private, means English-medium schools are more expensive, who are afford, they are going to that school. And generally, most probably,  there is no much more giving more attention, on English, particularly, English language. So, who parents are believing that there is no necessary much more, no need much more English and they are speaking in own language in the home, so just they are, they are put their child in the same community school like Gujarati people going to Gujarati school, Marati people going to Marati school like that. 

So um, the people that go to like their–

Muslim people, Muslim children going to Urdu school. 

Mhm, hmm

So is that school, are those schools, um public or private?

I can’t I can’t say it’s public. I can’t say that it is not different between the–only they have is a  municipality schools, what is the free one, and one is a  private one. All is coming in Gujarati Medium, Marati Medium, Urdu Medium, English Medium and they have to pay the tuition fee. 

Mhm-hmm, So there, there is, so can you talk more about that so like, so you went to a Gujarati-medium school right?

Yes.

So, in the Gujarati-medium school, are, is every single class in Gujarati, (yes) except one is in English (is in English)

English as a language 

Yeah

Second language, like that, and it is a lower language like that. First is a, first language is Hindi (mhm-hmm), and second language is like a lower language like a (like your second language). Like English (yeah) So we have, we have to study, we had to study three languages and one is our Gujarati, second is Hindi, compulsory we have to take, and third one is English kind of like our subject, second English-language, one kind of like subject. And after that, some medium, after the seventh standard, the one more langage is Marastrharan because we are living in Bombay. And in Bombay, Marati, Marhastran people are more and that;s why, all every school is compulsory, they put one more language is Marati, and everybody have compulsory study, have to take this language. So we have actually, kind of four languages. One total Gujarati, one second one is Hindi, third one is English, english as a subject, and fourth one is Marati.  

Um, so, since technically you have to pay (yes) to go to that school, right, do you have to, like, is it tuition that they cover or do you have to pay for um like uniforms (no), books (no) stuff like that?

Only we have to pay the tuitions, school do not give anything, no here is kind of, no any lunch, breakfast nothing. We have bring from our home, breakfast, lunch, whatever we like we have to bring from our home and there is two schedules. One is morning shift. There is two shift, one is a morning shift, who is generally, boys are going in the morning school and the second one is a noon shift most probably, girls are in the shift, the second shift. This is a two different one. They are not studying together, boys and girls are not studying altogether. They have to study two different shifts. Boys study in the morning shift and it is 7 to 12, 12:30 and girls are studying 12:30 to 6. 

Do they learn different things then?

Same thing, same standard, same thing, this is the, they are not studying altogether and it is separated, that’s just it. 

So, in the United States, you know, we have like pre-k, kindergarten, (in Gujarati) what did you have pre-k and kindergarten?

No, no. Pre-k and kindergarten-type of education didn’t really exist, generally we starting with the standard first, and sixth age. When a child becomes five, five years old, they are put in, says kindergarten (or first grade right) and first grade, but school is started from the year of the sixth. (so like when you’re six years old?) six years old, school is started, and it is first grade. 

So like, technically, we are like two years behind?

Yeah we are says, when a child becomes five years old, parents they put the child in balmandir, they says balminder. There is, we learn only the fun, play like that. 

So it’s like nursery school?

Yeah, it’s not kind of like nursery school but we have playing there, make a craft something, make a kite, or teacher make a ships, or kite or something of our festivals. They explain with our festivals, what festivals come, and they explain like that, and have to play like that. We don’t have to read or no books, nothing.

It’s not formal?

No, it’s not formal, nothing like that. 

Suppose that parents don’t want to send their kids to balmandir (it doesn’t matter), there isn’t a problem?

It [school] compulsory starts from first grade, six years old, he has to go to school, starting from the first standard, doesn’t matter if he went to balmandir or not.

Was getting an education difficult, especially if you were from a middle class or poor socioeconomic background?

No, no. There is no because who is economically backward or very poorest they are going to municipality school where there is free tuition. But they give some little breakfast, milk,  a pouch of milk they give, some milk they give, cookies they give (rotli?). No rotli they give, just some cookies they give. (like glucose biscuits), yes like glucose biscuits. But everybody get the education. Only is that, they do not much more giving more push to their child that have to take your educations. Parents  do not much more–parents did not really believe that kids have to get educated and they’re not pushing them. Parents weren’t educated much so they did not believe that our kids should get educated. 

So they were really living rough lives right?

Yeah, more so than living roughly, they really believed that kids were gonna do whatever business the parents were involved in, so they did not give much importance (emphasis) on education. 

So was school different then, suppose if you went to private school…you went to a Gujarati school, then the private English school, and the municipality school, was the education very different, in terms of quality.

Yeah the quality was really really different between all these schools. In English medium, they were going to really high–same subject, there is no anything different in subject, but the difference was only in language. The difference was how teachers taught but the subjects were the same, only different in language. Suppose history or geography we are studying same thing but we are studying in Gujarati and they are studying in English. 

So if you are all studying the same things, then why are English-medium, private, very expensive schools asking for so much more money?

Because it was high medium school, high language. They believed that if they went to a good, high school then they would get good conduct, good discipline, good behavior, and they would have more sports activities (more extracurricular activities?) yeah more extracurricular activities, that’s the difference. Same with municipality, Gujarati medium, and private schools–there would be more extracurricular classes. They [teachers, administrators] don’t care much more about the municipality kids because they are from a (lower socioeconomic background–so there was more classicism). Yeah alot of classicism. So that’s why they dont–a student can be brilliant but they don’t get more attention, more encouragement. They do not learn more there. So that’s why that’s the difference. 

So, I guess the question is mummy, that if people who went to municipality schools–suppose those who went to private english-medium schools, they did learn more things, read different things, more in-depth in school? Suppose like here in AP classes, regular, honors?

No, no like that. 

Kind of like how in AP classes, you learn more in depth, so since education was based on the class system in India, was it that in some programs you could learn more?

I have no idea. All of my friends and I were in the same category. It was rare to see English-medium schools.

You guys were in the challi system right?

Yeah, so none of us don’t really know the different.

Do you feel like there could’ve been a difference?

Maybe, it’s possible that there were more curriculum classes or more sports. But I don’t think there is anything else. I know that when I tutored students, I didn’t see much difference. Only the difference in the language. Whatever we are studying in Gujarati, they are studying in English. Only they are giving more, I think so, more sports. 

So mom, Farina, a Pakistani girl, who  attended a non-elite private English-medium (Matric/Intermediate level track) school, believes that her fluency in English will allow her to have stronger future prospects and has elevated her social status within her family, friends, and society. Farina elaborates, “I can tell from my childhood experience that a lot depends on your schooling… If you have had your schooling in the English language you will definitely thrive. You will definitely get proficiency in English. . . . My friends who don’t know English- they didn’t have good schooling. Mine was relatively better-just relatively better-less than A level students”  Was English education big in India when you were growing up?

No, they didn’t give, at the time 1960-70, they did not give much more importance in India to English, But after 80s or 90s, parents, and also their children believe that it is much more importance, they give more importance in English, and they believe that our students, our children have to learn English. And most of the parents they put their children in English-medium. After the 70s, 80s, there is no any kind of the no Gujarati medium, no Maharashtrian medium, all gone and only English medium is there, and nowadays only the  medium English, one school,  and all are period. There is no other kind of community school there. 

Just in Mumbai or everywhere?

Everywhere. Everywhere, all over India, only the one kind of school is English medium, no community schools anymore there, no municipality school, all gone. Everything is removed. It is because now the media’s too vast now, people are now traveling from country to country, and all over the world there is a main and common language for communication is English only, so now they believe  and now more in Indiathis in India. All are speaking English, children are studying in English. Also, in the school they prefer that when they [parents] are going to get admission for their child, they, also the school prefers that their parents speak in English. It’s necessary, very necessary.

Cut around 24:04 

What if you don’t speak English?

They want that if they give some extra activities some homework, parents can learn them, they help them. That’s why it’s compulsory they need parents to speak English.

What if you don’t speak English?

Generally, they are putting like that.  I don’t know about that but now it’s compulsory that every single parent must know how to speak English.

How do you know, you’ve lived here [in the US] for years?

Chetan’s children are getting English education. 

For the interview, Chetan is your nephew right?

Yes, my nephew’s children are all getting taught in English. Aarti’s children, Rhaki, Puja, schools want parents to know English. 

Aneesa, who attended a private English-medium school in Pakistan said that knowing English was an honor and a symbol of prestige for her, giving her the tools to succeed career-wise. However, Farina said that some of her relatives were more fluent in English. They would purposely speak and ask her questions in English to humiliate her. She said that this made her feel inferior. Farina questioned her capabilities and felt as if they were “questioning my identity” her social status. Kamran, a punjabi student who attended public school in Pakistan said that people who spoke English got more respect, but since he was fluent in Urdu, people did not respect him, especially people from upper class families. Did you ever encounter classism like that? Did you ever feel oppression for not being fluent in English? 

Yeah, because my cousin sister, they are in English, private, English medium school. Sometimes they feel me inferior for this reason that I do not speak English.  Sometimes thy feel me like that because they speak English always all the time. So maybe, they are not mean like that but I feel that they feel me for this. 

So it’s classicism?

Yeah, whatever, wherever I was grown up, they, that place, all we are same community and we are study, we get educated in one school and it is a Gujarati school, that’s it. So I have never ever problem, like that. Only sometimes, some relatives  like that, otherwise I no have any kind of experience like it. 

This is really interesting.  There’s a writing studies scholar named Laura Greenfield who says that “it is not the language which causes listeners to make assumptions about the speaker, but the attitudes held by the listeners toward the speaker that cause them to extend that attitude towards the speaker’s language” (Greenfield).

Yes I believe this and 100%. It is true that sometimes it’s believed that sometimes they are more educated and 100% they are show their attitude to who is lower educated than them. It is 100% that, it is happened that. And still today it is true, still today it is true, I really saw that sometimes that in student student each that some get good nice education and some do not or get lower educated or less educated so always they feel, always they feel inferior for this. And I am believing that this is true. Language doesn’t make anyone inferior. Your attitudes make others feel inferior, make others feel low. 

In my class, I was assigned a project called #StorytellingAsResistance to which I had to talk about a social justice issue that I cared about. The purpose of this podcast was to blend Gujarati and English to create a story about English educational experiences across generations and cultures. I was inspired by Min Zhan Lu, a Native American writer who was at the Carlisle School for Indians in which she  talked about her experiences with oppression because she was a Native American person. She uses English as a way to subvert the mission statement that said “Kill the Indian, Save the Man.” Separately, I also read “Should Writers Use They Own English” by Vershawn Ashanti Young who uses African American Vernacular to advocate for code meshing, mixing Standard English with other dialects and languages. For example, he writes: “Dominant language ideology say peeps can say whateva the heck they want, howeva they want to–BUT AT HOME”, “Everybody mix the dialect they learn at home with whateva other dialect or language they learn afterwards” and “Yet, even folks with good jobs in the corporate world don’t follow no standard English.” Young’s article demonstrates the blending of standard English and Black English to create an academic paper with a cogent argument with substantial evidence to support the argument. Since all languages are equal, have their own rules and agencies, and because language is negotiated to get your purpose and message across, with my mom’s help, we’re gonna read and translate some really great Gujarati poems that speak against oppression. 

The first one is titled “Search For My Tongue” by poet Sujata Bhatt. Bhatt writes the poem in Gujarati and English. Bhatt writes about the loss of their mother tongue, Gujarati while learning new languages. I must confess, that throughout a good majority of my life, I’ve held an esteem and honor in being able to speak English. It really aggravated me that people would mispronounce or misspell my name. As an Indian person, I felt ashamed to speak Gujarati in public. But through this class, and another class called Pedagogies of the Writing Center, I was able to embrace my heritage and accept my identity as Indian and American and have learned to negotiate my agencies between my two languages, as Sujata Bhatt does in this poem. 

This next poem is by Kavi Kalapi. 

Kalapi uses a bird and its relationship with humans  as a medium and metaphor to describe the differences in society–the split between lower classes of people and rich people. And poor people are always crushed by rich people. People in power always discriminate against people of lower socioeconomic status or people who aren’t on the same level of advantage as them. Just as a bird who is afraid of anyone coming near them, flies away, right now, poor disadvantaged people are so afraid of people who have a higher status then them. That’s what this poem is about. 

The last poem is by Narsi Mehta on Vaishnav Jan. 

Vaishnav Jan means a human who has a heart full of kidness. They never thought to make anyone feel inferior based on their caste, race, socioeconomic status etc. Narsi Mehta was born about 600 years ago as was this poem, and at the time, society was based on the caste system: Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaisya, and Sudra. Brahmins would believe themselves to be superior and always tried to harass and crush the Sudras. For example, they wouldn’t let them drink water from the well or bathe in the river, or wouldn’t allow them to touch a Brahmin or come walk on the paths they were walking on. Mahatma Gandhi would reference this poem a lot in Africa when the war between Black and White people was going on. This song, bhajan was a favorite of Mahatma Gandhi. Vaishnav Jan is someone who is truly human, someone who sees everyone and treats everyone equally. 

Human is someone who feels others feelings (empathetic)

And he always tries to help others, people who need help. But he never thinks that he is helping out selfishness, he isn’t egotistic.

Everyone is equal in the Human’s eyes. There is no racism or maliciousness or criticism in their minds. 

He always gives respect to ladies and always sees women as someone who deserves respect. That person is a human.

These humans–people who help others, treat women and everyone with respect, is humble, that person is considered a human and that person is equal to God. 

Thank you so much mom, thank you thank you.

Works Cited 

Bhatt, Sujata. “Sujata Bhatt – Search for My Tongue.” Studylib.net, studylib.net/doc/7362134/sujata-bhatt-%E2%80%93-search-for-my-tongue.

Greenfield, Laura. “The Standard English Fairytale.” Writing Center.Oregon State, writingcenter.oregonstate.edu/sites/default/files/media/GreenfieldStandardEnglishFairyTale.pdf.

Haldankar, Smita, and Kavi Kalapi. “In the Memories Of Great Gujarati Poet Kavi Kalapi.” SmitCreation, 14 May 2016, http://www.smitcreation.com/in-the-memories-of-great-gujarati-poet-kavi-kalapi/.

Lu, Min-Zhan. “From Silence to Words: Writing as Struggle.” College English, vol. 49, no. 4, 1987, pp. 437–448. JSTOR, http://www.jstor.org/stable/377860. Accessed 25 Apr. 2020.

Lysicott, Jamila J. “About Jamila’s Work – Jamila J. Lyiscott, Ph.D.” About Jamila’s Work – Jamila J. Lyiscott, Ph.D, http://www.jamilalyiscott.com/bio.

Lysicott, Jamila. “Why English Class is Silencing Students of Color.” YouTube, uploaded by Tedx Talks, 23 May 2018, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4dc1axRwE4&feature=youtu.be

Mehta, Narsi. “Vaishnav Jan to Tene Kahiye.” Vaishnav Jan to Tene Kahiye, sacred-songs.blogspot.com/2007/06/vaishnav-jan-to-tene-kahiye.html.

Ministry of Home Affairs. “Constitutional Provisions Relating to Eighth Schedule.” Https://Www.mha.gov.in/Sites/Default/Files/EighthSchedule_19052017.Pdf, Ministry of Home Affairs.

Shamim, Fauzia, and Uzma Rashid. “The English/Urdu-Medium Divide in Pakistan: Consequences for Learner Identity and Future Life Chances.” Journal of Education and Educational Development, vol. 6, no. 1, June 2019, pp. 43–61. EBSCOhost, search.ebscohost.com/login.aspx?direct=true&AuthType=cookie,ip,url&db=eric&AN=EJ1216773&site=eds-live.

Young, Vershawn Ashanti. “Should Writers Use They Own English?” Iowa Research Online, Iowa Journal of Cultural Studies, 13 Dec. 2010, ir.uiowa.edu/ijcs/vol12/iss1/10/.